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Seth Williams is an experienced land investor, residential income property owner and commercial real estate banker. He is also the Founder of REtipster.com – a real estate investing blog providing real world guidance for part time real estate investors.
This interview is packed full of interesting information about buying and selling vacant lots….and the really cool thing is that most of it relates to buying and selling houses.
Find out how he builds a mailing list that typically gets better than a 10% response rate along with the exact message he puts on his postcards.
Learn how he analyzes these deals so that he knows what he can offer and still make a great profit.
Seth also shares how he is able to sell these lots for passive income and make even more money.
There were several things that surprised me during the interview, like when he informed me that most people that buy lots from him aren’t going to build houses on them. Find out why, in today’s episode.
Top 3 Things We Love (and Hate) About Our Businesses
1. Freedom to do what I want, when I want
2. Large pay days (and thrill of the chase getting deals)
3. Working the business with my wife
Hate – strong word, dislike is more accurate
2. Bad contractors
3. Dishonest investors
Never a dull moment…ups and downs…
Seth’s Loves and Dislikes
1. Thrill of getting accepted offers – that it’s possible to get great deals
2. Passive Income
3. Large Paydays
1. Times when properties don’t sell immediately
2. Uncertainty of whether deals will be consistent in his pipeline
3. Cumbersome and time-consuming processes for buying and selling
He got started investing in real estate during college around 2005 and 2006. The real estate market then was white hot and that made it difficult to get good deals.
Seth decided to start buying and selling land.
Seth finds his deals by tracking down people that own vacant lots that are delinquent on their property taxes. He does this by contacting the tax assessors and treasures for the counties where the properties are and asks for a spreadsheet with the addresses and owner’s information.
Some will give out this information quickly and without hesitation and then some counties will make it very difficult, if not impossible.
He gets these records anywhere from free to up to 25 cents per record.
With records in hand, he then sends out post cards to the people that are delinquent on their property taxes. He says he typically gets better than a 10% response rate (which is pretty damn good) with these postcards!
Here are the postcards:
During the interview, he goes into detail with how to analyze land (vacant lots) deals so that he knows what to offer so he can make a worthwhile profit.
Seth also shares his strategy for making long-term passive income with these lots. He sells some of them with owner financing at close to 10% interest.
One example is where he bought a lot for about $1,000. He got a $500 downpayment from a buyer and then received payments for several years. The first couple months payments paid him back his initial outlay and the rest was pure profit!
He focuses on buying land in the counties outside of big cities. He avoids inner city lots because they are typically in war zones where nobody will want to build.
Find out why people typically buy his lots by listening the episode….(and it’s not usually to build a house)
Quote: “If you want total security, go to prison. There you’re fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking… is freedom.” – Dwight D. Eisenhower
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Welcome to the Flipping Junkie Podcast. My name is Danny Johnson, former software developer turned house flipper, flipping hundreds of houses. Each week we bring you interview, strategies, and stories and motivation to help you get started flipping houses and on your way to becoming your own boss and achieving financial freedom. Thanks for spending time with me today. Now let’s get to it.
Danny Johnson: My guest today is Seth Williams. I’ve known Seth for a couple of years and I’m super pumped to have him on the show. He’s an experienced land investor, residential income property owner and commercial real estate banker. He is also the founder of REtipster.com, which is a great blog that focuses on helping part time real estate investors. As we spoke in this interview about buying and selling vacant land, it occurred to me that most of what was talked about relates completely to flipping houses. You might actually even be able to learn something new because it’s taught from a different perspective in this episode, so I thought it was really cool and a very interesting part of the show is also when he mentions that most of the people that buy lots from him don’t even plan on building. I thought it was crazy. You can find out what that’s all about. He also gave some great tips on how to sell lots for long term income, so it’s a great way to set yourself up for some long term income. We also took a minute to discuss three things that we love and then three things that we despise about real estate investing. A lot of will probably find that pretty interesting and Seth also agreed to provide an example, the postcard he sends out to get leads. You can download that from the show notes pages at flipping junkie dot com slash nine – that’s the number nine, flippingjkunkie.com/9 for the show notes and to get that example of the postcard.
Now get ready take some notes because today’s episode is full of great tips. Enjoy the show.
Alright, today I’ve got my good friend Seth on the show. Really glad he could make it. His name is Seth Williams. He’s an experienced land investor, residential income property owner and commercial real estate banker. He’s also the founder of REtipster.com that’s a real estate investing blog providing real world guidance for part time real estate investors. How is it going Seth?
Seth Williams: It’s going good Danny. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me on.
Danny Johnson: Yeah. Thanks for being on the show. So you want to tell the audience a little bit about yourself and how you got into investing and I like to also have people add not just how you got into but what got you interested in.
Seth Williams: Yeah. Well I think it can all started sort of the way it does for a lot of real estate investors. Just reading books on the subjects, kind of started with the Rich Dad, Poor Dad as it does for a lot of people. And it just really sort of started to resonate and I kind of realized, “Man, there’s something here. This could be really cool.” And that was back when I was in college.
And what I found when I started actually getting into that and trying to find good deals out there was that it was just it was really really hard and it was like 2005-2006 at that time and prices were just nuts everywhere and I could never find a deal that would make sense. And that was around that time a couple of years later when I discovered land investing and that’s kind of what I’ve been focusing on ever since then. And land I found it was a little bit different in a way that wouldn’t really occur to a lot of people because it’s just a much much simpler animal than houses and buildings and that kind of thing because it’s just dirt. There’s really not much to it and there are actually ways to buy land for prices that are just like crazy cheap. It’s ridiculous. And the way that I have always done that is by contacting people who are delinquent on their taxes and just sending them offers that would be laughable to most people, but a lot of people and they are delinquent on their taxes, it means for one reason or another they don’t want their property. They either can’t afford it or it’s just a nuisance in their life and it’s just a really good opportunity to get in there and offer people an easy button and a lot of people will accept this Land is not something that’s a ton of people who are out there trying to buy, but when you can buy it at the right price, next to nothing, it’s really not hard to turn that around and sell it for decent mark up and the selling price is still probably well below full market value. But the fact that I got in there is so cheap, it was just really easy to find that profit margin and make money on it. Land has just been a really cool investment that I have enjoyed a lot and that’s kind of what I’ve tried to direct most of my attention effort to.
Danny Johnson: That’s awesome, yeah. In the past, I remember there are times I think I flipped one or two lots before too and it just happened sort of because we might bought a house and there was a vacant lot next door to it and so I was like I’ll send a letter out to those owners of that lot and see what I can do and then we ended up doing a deal and turned around selling it. But I think the point the part that where you said if people have delinquent taxes, that’s an incredible idea because really that lot’s not generating any income for those people and it’s just doing nothing but costing them money.
Seth Williams: Yeah it’s really – it’s just kind of like a thorn in their side and it’s not like it’s difficult to take care of a piece of vacant land, I mean you can sort of walk away from it and not worry about it. But I think what bothers a lot of people is they’re paying this tax bill once or twice a year and they’re just like, “But why am I doing this? I’m just throwing money away.” Honestly, if they’re not using it, they kind of are. It’s like “how can we stop that bleeding.” The answer is, I’ll offer you a few hundred bucks or a few thousand bucks or whatever a good deal is to me –don’t get me wrong a lot of people saying no and they’re like “get lost.” But like I’d say, the acceptance rate is probably one out of every eight, maybe one out of every dozen offers or so that I send people will accept that. It takes some time to find those people, but it’s all worth it in the end. When you get that accepted offer for that incredible price, it’s just like, “Man, that is amazing.”
Danny Johnson: Wow. You said you look for people with delinquent taxes, how do you do that?
Seth Williams: Yeah it’s just a matter of getting a hold of county treasure tax collector and really every treasure in the country has this list, whether or not they’re willing to give it to you is another story, but it’s just a matter of contacting them and saying “Look I need a list of all the people in your county that are currently delinquent on their property taxes.” Some counties are very open with that and others are like, “No, we’re not going to do it.” It can be kind of a frustrating process in the very beginning finding the counties that will or won’t make the process easy for you. I think I’ve worked with about 30 counties in my state and probably 8 to 10 of them are really good to work with. The rest of them are just, for one reason or another, they’re just kind of a hassle and I don’t bother with them. I mean it really does take some homework in just doing to find the right sources for that list.
Danny Johnson: So they’re not online then.
Seth Williams: No. Well, it’s actually – I think some counties may have that online, but it’s not in the kind of format that’s easy to work with. What we’re looking for is an actual excel file listing all of these people as of a certain point in time because that list is changing literally every day as people do or don’t pay their taxes and get on that list. It’s a list that they have to generate that day and send to you and you have to use the information relatively soon. You can’t just sit on it because that list is always changing. Once you get it, you kind of have to act on it pretty quick. It’s just a list. You can call the treasurer and ask for it and then yeah, some of them will be happy to give it there. It usually does cost money. I’ve seen the price range – the cheapest I’ve seen is, I guess, free. Sometimes you can get it for like a penny a parcel, but the most common price I see is about 25 cents per parcel. I mean some of these lists can get pretty expensive in the counter. I have to keep that in mind when considering whether or not you want to do that.
Danny Johnson: Sounds pretty cheap to me though for good leads like that and some people when they hear you say things like, “Well, you got a call because most of them aren’t online and some of them are a hassle to work with and some people might hear that and say, “Oh, that sounds like it’s difficult”. But when I hear that I think that sounds difficult to most people so they’re not going to do it.
Seth Williams: Absolutely.
Danny Johnson: And so if you put the work in there’s just severely limited competition with it right.
Seth Williams: Yeah. And that’s another really cool thing about the land niche. I don’t know if it’s because of how I’m finding the leads or if it’s because it’s land or maybe it’s both. But I have never encountered a competitor ever in this business. When I find somebody and I send them the offer, there is nobody else I’m fighting with. It’s just it’s just me. If people do say no, it’s like, “Okay. Good luck.” Nobody else is pounding on your door.
Danny Johnson: Yeah. And I think it’s something that’s not really taught how often. And that’s probably a reason so like my question is sort of, how do you analyze these deals? I mean it’s not like a typical day where you’re going to find on the MLS a bunch of lots that’s sold for comps. So how do you do this in houses?
Seth Williams: Yeah. That’s a very good question and that’s actually one of the biggest challenges I think of the business because the comps aren’t there a lot of times and the way you have to find this information and get comfortable with your idea of the supposed market value, it’s not a straight forward thing at all. What I usually end up doing is I kind of go to a few different sources. I’ll get on a website like Zillow or Redfin and just find other similar size lots in similar locations and I just look for what they’re listed for, not necessarily what they sold for. The listing price certainly is not what it’s going to sell for, but it tells me what my competition is. These are the properties that I have to look better than in order to get noticed and that’s just a really good a good thing to be educated about it. Another way you can do it, it’s a little bit more time consuming, but you can actually call up two or three realtors in that area who also have land listed for sale and just not necessarily trusting their word as the gospel truth, but just kind of getting their take on it saying, “Here’s the property. If I were to list this with you today, if I want to wanted this to sell in six more months, how much do you think it would sell for?” And you sort of get that input from a few different people and sometimes you’ll get varying answers, sometimes they’ll be wildly different. Sometimes they’ll all kind of be in line, but it at least will give you something to go on other than just your gut. Because a lot of times, the properties that I’m buying they’re not necessarily in the city or county where I live. So I don’t know these markets that well and it’s really good to get the input of people who are in there every day working in those markets.
Danny Johnson: Yeah, I know. That’s really smart and I think even for people looking to flip houses that’s a good way to get ideas of what houses are going to sell for exactly the same way just talking with other agents and then other investors and stuff like that. Do you also sort of offer a certain percentage of what you think you’re going to sell it for?
Seth Williams: Yeah. And again this is part of why it’s tricky, but whenever I kind of establish my theoretical number for that property’s market value, I’m usually going – I’ve actually got a spreadsheet where I have different scenarios based on how motivated I think that seller is. But in one scenario, I’ll offer 10% of market value. At the most I would offer 40% but I usually don’t go that high. Usually it’s somewhere in the 10- 20% range. Don’t get me wrong, a lot of people say no. It’s not like I’m just pulling in deals left and right because I have send them an offer. It takes some patience and some dealing. It’s really kind of just a numbers game. You will get those yeses. It’s just a matter of sticking to it until they come.
Danny Johnson: So do you do follow up where you hit people with letters or postcards? Do you use letters and postcards and how many times do you mail to each person?
Seth Williams: Yeah I do. I do use postcards. I use letters as well, but postcards is kind of been what I’ve stuck to for the most part because they’re cheaper and I kind of think they’re easier to convey the message without somebody throwing it away before they open it. I don’t know that that’s necessarily the best way, but that’s just kind of how I’ve done it. I actually do not hit them repeatedly like that. I know I’ve heard of a lot of people who do that, but the thing with the delinquent taxes is that that’s something that’s changing all the time and a lot of times when I’m contacting these people, they only have like a couple of months until their property is seized by the county and if they don’t sell it to me they’re losing everything. So it just doesn’t make sense to just hit him again and again and again because the problem is not going to be relevant six months from now. I’m just hitting them once and that’s it.
Danny Johnson: Wow. Do you have any idea of what sort of the rate of calls that you get per how many that you send out a postcard?
Seth Williams: Yeah. It’s the high end. It would be like 25-ish percent.
Danny Johnson: Wow.
Seth Williams: And that’s that is like the best case scenario. I don’t think I’ve ever seen higher than that. The more typical response rate would be maybe like 10-ish percent. I don’t almost never see it lower than 5%.
Danny Johnson: Well that’s really good.
Seth Williams: Yeah. I think a lot of things can have an impact, but I think the real power is in the list. Getting the right data that’s accurate and not only that but also filtering that list and getting rid of a lot of the junk leads that are not likely to call you back or do business with you. It can really just sort of test your patience because this stuff can take a lot of time and effort to do on the front end, but man, it totally pays off if you’re willing to take the time to do that.
Seth Williams: Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. I mean there are so many people who don’t want to take time to scrub lists. But man, just look at your response rate, if you didn’t scrub lists and stuff like that, I’m sure it’d probably be at least half of what you’re getting or maybe even a little bit better. So the list has so much to do with it because especially when you’re targeting houses and you have more competition and then the list are being used by so many other people, to narrow down who you are mailing to based on motivation or likelihood of motivation is just a smart way to do it.
Seth Williams: Yeah. I’ve had experiences in the past where maybe I got the list from a place that did not have the best data and it is not fun. It is not fun to send out 500 postcards and you get maybe five responses from that and all of them want for market value. It just kind of like crushes your spirit in a way, it like, “Man, this is horrible.” I’ve only made that mistake like once or twice ever because it was so painful, I’m like, “Okay, I am never doing that again.”
Danny Johnson: Yeah, absolutely. Would you mind sharing what your postcard has on it in a general sense or as specific as you want to be with it?
Seth Williams: Yeah, absolutely. I’ve actually got a blog post that kind of lays that stuff out but—
Danny Johnson: And we can put that in the show notes if you want to send me a link to it.
Seth Williams: Yeah for sure. Yup, absolutely. The blog post is actually called, “A Million Dollar Postcard Templates That Work.” There are three templates that I’ve and they’ve all worked and I think it’s really honestly the power is mostly in that list, but saying something that gets noticed also is very helpful. The template that I’ve used most often is just kind of like a personal note to people and it’s used on a very like a courier type font like a typewriter and it’s not flashy at all. It’s just like a couple of paragraphs and you’re saying, “Hey, I saw you had this property in this county and didn’t know if you’re interested in selling it and if you are, I’m looking for land in that same area and I’m interested in buying. Give me a call on this number or visit my website here.” And that’s pretty much all there is to it.
Danny Johnson: Wow. So many people want to make that so much more complicated than it needs to be – with what the message should be on the postcard. If there’s motivation, as long as they can determine what you’re trained to tell them pretty quickly and what has a call to action for what you want them to do that should work pretty well. Do you mind, could you also send me that postcard? I can put it up to where people can maybe download an image of it or something from the show notes.
Seth Williams: Yeah, absolutely.
Danny Johnson: And then we also link to that post too for more information on it.
Seth Williams: You bet.
Danny Johnson: And so the other thing I wanted to ask was, so you do the postcards and then how are you selling these? What’s your what’s your exit strategy for these, the land that you buy?
Seth Williams: Well, I guess in the beginning, I was trying to just sell for cash just to get my money back, so I could do it all over again. A couple of years into it or maybe as soon as a year into it, I started trying to sell these with seller financing and I found that that was actually really really effective in terms of getting it sold quicker and selling it for a higher price and making more money in the end and getting passive income along the way. In a lot of ways, it’s a really powerful tool if you’re willing to go through the hassle of that. The only downside is you don’t get all your money immediately. But if you have enough to operate on, you really don’t need it and it would be great to develop those sources of income. These days, I’m actually trying to get my cash back again now so I can plug it into other things like a long term rental property and that kind of thing. So these days I’m opting more to sell for cash, but if I ever have issues selling a property or can’t find a buyer immediately, doing the seller financing thing is hugely helpful just in terms of opening the door for a lot more people who can essentially afford to buy my property where they otherwise couldn’t.
Danny Johnson: I love that idea. With the owner financing of these lots, can you give us an example of sort of the numbers for buying maybe one? I know it probably varies depending on where it’s at and all that kind of stuff, but maybe just a rough idea of an example of what you’re buying one for, then what your owner finance it for and the terms of the sale when you’re selling it with owner financing.
Seth Williams: Yeah. I’m trying to think for an example. A lot of the ones that I did in the early years were on the cheaper ends, so they weren’t huge dollars. But for example, one I think I sold for $8,000 and I only had maybe $1,000 invested in that in the first place. So the downpayment I got was somewhere in the range of like $500-ish and then the first few payments after that basically covered everything I had invested in the property. I believe that was a five year term on that land contract and really every payment thereafter was just pure profit. Again it was land and it was effectively somebody else’s, I didn’t lose any sleep worrying about what was happening to it or anything like that. It was very simple thing.
Danny Johnson: What kind of interest rate do you typically charge when you sell the lot?
Seth Williams: 9.99%
Danny Johnson: Nice.
Seth Williams: Yeah. It’s actually – it’s kind of a funny thing. There’s a lot you can do to play with that when you’re advertising it and selling it to people. In your actual closing documents I think you know you just have to disclose all of that, but some people will be like, “9.99% that’s horrible.” I guess the first thing you keep in mind with land anyway most banks are never going to lend on just vacant land unless you have an immediate plan to develop that. Most banks aren’t even going to talk to you on that, but then also like I don’t really advertise the rates in the actual listing. I just say—
Danny Johnson: –price per month, right.
Seth Williams: Yeah, exactly. And people are just looking at that as like, “Yeah, I can afford that. That makes sense.”
Danny Johnson: That’s all they really care about and actually when you told me 9.99%, I was thinking it was actually kind of low. Because you’re offering owner financing, I mean these people can have nuts of store credit and it’s something that a bank is not likely to lend on anyway. It’s like you said, if you market it with the – any time you do anything like that with rentals or owner finance, you tell people what it’s going to cost them per month because that’s what they really care about and that’s how they determine whether they can afford it or not, is how much they’re going to have to spend each month. But if you think about interest rates back, I guess it was maybe back in the 80s, huh?
Seth Williams: Yeah.
Danny Johnson: I don’t know. I don’t think either of us are really that old.
Seth Williams: Yeah, I’ve heard the stories.
Danny Johnson: But they were what? Up at18% and stuff like that. We’re just so used to them being so low for so long lately that it seems like a lot whenever you hear something being 10%.
Seth Williams: Another thing with seller financing is you can play with the price a lot too. You can either charge a higher rate or a lower rate and a higher price, but again I mean the payment and the affordability of that is what most people are primarily concerned with.
Danny Johnson: And so what do you typically find you or your buyers wanting to do with these lots? Do you have builders that buy lots from you or is it just people or neighbors may be buying lots to make their own lot bigger? What do you find is typically the case?
Seth Williams: Yeah. There can be old all kinds of different reasons. I’ve actually found surprisingly as I look back on it, a lot of the people I sell these to are not necessarily looking to build on it. They sort of want like this like a retreat, like a home away from home, and it just kind of sounds cool to own land out in the country. I don’t know why but their intent is not to buy this thing and build their primary residence on it. I mean, maybe that’s happened, but if it has I haven’t really been made aware of that. It’s mostly just people who kind of want a piece of property away from home.
Danny Johnson: So most of these, I mean, you buy inside of the city limits and a lot of places and then also do you have any criteria of what parts of cities or outside of cities or anything like that you target for lots that you want to buy.
Seth Williams: That’s actually a great question. I actually very intentionally try not to buy in cities. I was doing that at the beginning but what I found was that a lot of the lots that were in a big city were actually in the ghetto of town like places where nobody wants to be. Basically just like an old junk for a house that was torn down that is just a vacant lot there. And in my experience, those have never been the kind of property to buy, simply because is going to invest the money to build a new home there. It’s just not what people are thinking, so the places that target are in the counties surrounding those big cities because those places are about an hour or two hour drive from where most people live and it’s far enough away to sort of be away from the hustle and bustle and that kind of thing. They just look really good to a lot of people who want to buy that kind of vacation property or whatever you want to call it. And a lot of times those properties have sort of like a beauty factor to it just because there is wilderness and nature around it and that kind of thing. There may be a more effective way to get in the city but because of the experiences I’ve had, I’ve just kind of said, “Forget that.” I’m just doing stuff in the outskirts now.
Danny Johnson: Yeah, it’s smart. I like that. Do you have any criteria for whether or not there are utilities at the property if you’re buying like that and there may be lot size as well.
Seth Williams: There’s a few different utilities to worry about like electricity, there is well, there’s septic there are all these different things. That is something I usually try to get a good feel for and I think the only issue that I’ve even come close to encountering was when it comes to perc tests like, seeing if you know land can handle a septic system because a lot of times there’s not like a city sewer in these areas, so in order to know for sure that it’s going to be able to handle that, you got to do a perc test. I don’t know if you’ve ever been through that process, but you basically have to dig a hole in the ground and put water in it and test how quickly the water drains. It’s kind of a hassle honestly. It takes time and there’s always a cost to it, but other than that it’s pretty simple to figure out if electricity is available, if phone cable and all those things are available. You just can call your local utility company and most places you can drill for a well and that’s not generally a problem. In terms of size, mainly there are the occasional properties out there that for whatever reason, I don’t even know why they exist. They’re like these tiny little sliver lots that you can’t fit anything onto. They’re just kind of like the leftovers that people didn’t know what to do when they were designing the property lines. There’s not a ton of them but you do encounter them from time to time. I’m usually looking at a personal map before I’m making offers on the stuff just so I know “Okay, this is a legitimate property that is actually useful for something.”
Danny Johnson: Yeah, you can make sure you have access to it too.
Seth Williams: Yeah. And surprisingly, I have bought several land lock properties and actually they sell okay which is weird to me because you can’t access it, I don’t know how that’s even usable. But on a number of occasions I’ve been able to buy these big five acre chunks of land that didn’t have access and because of that I was able to make like a very very low offer like $150 bucks for five acres and on the back end of selling it – again it’s I think a lot of land buyers, I don’t know why, but they’re not necessarily thinking logically like “What can I do with this tomorrow?” It’s more of just like the dream of property ownership like, “I want to own land.” And that shocks the ___ [0:28:14] Even if it’s really hard or impossible to get to it, they still just want to own that land. I’m not hiding that fact in any way, shape or form. I usually say—
Danny Johnson: There’s ways to get to it, right? If the neighbor is willing to give you and sometimes there’s even sort of like a recorded right of way. Right?
Seth Williams: Yeah. That’s something you can find out through the title search and that kind of thing. In some jurisdictions, there’s actually a few in my state where you can’t do this, but in some, the local municipality I’m told, can even force a neighboring property owner to make way for that because they don’t want just these useless pieces of property out there.
Danny Johnson: They want to get more tax revenue from it.
Seth Williams: Yeah, absolutely. So depending on where you’re at, that may be an option too.
Danny Johnson: Well cool. What’s the biggest size of land for a single purchase you think you’ve made?
Seth Williams: I’d say the biggest one that I’ve done. Well, there was actually – I’ll tell you about two of them. The first one it actually closed and went through and everything. It was a big 12-acre parcel right on Lake Huron in Northern Michigan and had 500 feet of beach frontage and I was able to give that for $4,500 bucks and I sold it a few months later for $45,000. I probably could have gotten a lot more than that if I had been willing to just hang onto it for a few years because this was 2011 when this happened. Things were about as bad as they were ever going to get, but that was that was a pretty good deal. There was another one that I was actually looking at in New Jersey with a friend of mine who also does this and this property was, it was in Hudson County so like right outside of New York City. And no joke, the value on this property was like half a million bucks and we got assigned contract from the seller to sell it for $27,000. This would have been a huge deal, but the deal ended up falling through because not surprisingly he just tried a little bit and found somebody who was willing to pay him $100,000 for it. But it was like, “Oh, almost.” And it just kind of goes to show you like the level of stuff there is out there if you’re searching for this kind of thing. There are these huge grand slam deals to be had and you will come across them if you’re doing this long enough.
Danny Johnson: Yeah, that’s one of the fun things you never know what’s going to happen. You could be having a rough week where you’re not getting any calls and you’re thinking, “Oh man, this is tough.” And then all of a sudden listen you get one call from the super motivated seller with a hot property willing to just unload it and then it’ll make your month or even two months. Yeah, that’s awesome. We wanted to share also, we talked before the show there’s so many things that we love about the real estate investing business and then there are some things that we also – I don’t know if we use the word hate. It’s sort of a strong word, maybe dislike, for some of these things but let’s go ahead and talk about those things that we came up with. If you want to maybe share the three things that you love about real estate investing in general.
Seth Williams: Yeah. Well I guess in no particular order I think the first thrill that I ever got. When I started doing land investing, it was when I got my first accepted offer. Just like when it kind of hit me like, “Oh, my word. This is real.” There are actually people out there who will sell their property for almost nothing. It blew my mind and it’s just kind of like this big light bulb moment in it. It’s sort of still is every time I get one of these. It’s just like, “Man, this is so awesome that I found this opportunity.” And just sort of the realization that this stuff is all over the place, it’s everywhere. You just have to be looking in the right places and looking where most people aren’t looking. I don’t know, what’s something that you love about your business?
Danny Johnson: Well, I think the first thing that came to mind is the freedom to do what I want and when I want. With a job it’s like I’ve got to get up in the morning Monday through Friday, be there at a certain time, take my lunch and make sure I get back from lunch at a certain time so I don’t get in trouble and all of that and then wait until you build up enough time for a vacation and that just drove me absolutely nuts. Going full time into real estate investing and just being able to take time off in the middle of the day to say, “Hey, you know I’m going to watch a movie.” We don’t do it all the time. We probably work more than we did at the job but man just knowing that you can do that whenever you want. That’s what I love.
Seth Williams: Yeah. Man, that is huge. I completely understand that. Actually, I saw this quote from I think it was Eisenhower and I’m totally going to get this wrong, but basically what he was saying was that if you want security then go to prison because there you’re going to be clothed, fed, everything you need is going to be there. The only thing you’re not going to have is freedom. It kind of made me realize like, “Man, there’s a lot of truth to that.” Security and freedom really can be very very different from each other and I think in a lot of ways both of them sound very appealing, but I have to like pick or choose at some point.
Danny Johnson: I agree completely and that kind of equates a job with prison doesn’t it?
Seth Williams: Yeah sort of does.
Danny Johnson: Because you know the security and everything else, but not that all jobs are bad, but if you want freedom it’s sort of up to you to go out there and get it for yourself.
Seth Williams: Yeah, absolutely.
Danny Johnson: So what’s the next thing of the three?
Seth Williams: For me, my next one was the passive income aspect of it just. I don’t know, I think for a lot of people passive income is kind of like this Holy Grail like this amazing thing to try to get in life. I think it is too, but it’s kind of hard. There are not always easy ways to do that, but with the land contracts and with the rental properties that I have, every time I get to see a check or a direct deposit show up and it’s like, man, I did like almost nothing for that this month. That just sort of happened all on its own. I did plenty work to set those up in the first place, but just that whole idea of this is just going to keep coming for the next several years or indefinitely that’s a really cool thing.
Danny Johnson: Yeah and I love that too and I think that’s for everybody to think. If you want to get into flipping houses and you think, “Oh, I’m just going to flip houses.” You’re going to get to the point where you’re going to say, “You know what, I need to start having passive income. I need to start getting rental properties and things like that so that I do some work now and it pays me for a really long time.” And then you build equity and that’s really the true way to building a fortune isn’t it?
Seth Williams: Yeah I think so.
Danny Johnson: I think my second thing that I wrote down for what I love about the business is pretty similar to that, so it’s the large paydays and sort of the thrill of the chase of getting deals.
Seth Williams: Yeah, that’s huge.
Danny Johnson: Whenever you get you get –I mean sometimes you do so many of them over time and you sort of get to the point where you know you close and it doesn’t even hit you that you maybe made $40,000 on a flip. You’re like, okay, when are going to home and do – or what’s next? But the first time you get that you’re going nuts, even by the first 10 times.
Seth Williams: That was actually my 3rd one too. It’s just the thrill of closing a huge sale. It’s funny you say that. I remember when I sold that big one up by Lake Huron, I remember just driving home with a $45,000 check in my car and I was sort of surprised it wasn’t like I was levitating. It was just kind of like, “Yes, okay. What’s next?”
Danny Johnson: Yes. You got to find the next deal already.
Seth Williams: And I think in time I’ve kind of reflected back on that. Man, that’s just amazing. But I just it’s really cool how you can in one fall swoop make more from one deal than you could an entire year from a day job, that’s just an amazing thing.
Danny Johnson: Yeah. It’s also just a matter of making that consistent, right?
Seth Williams: Absolutely.
Danny Johnson: All right so what’s the third one you’ve got there for what you love about real estate investing.
Seth Williams: That was actually my third one, the one that you said. I would talk on it more if you want to.
Danny Johnson: Yeah, no. It’s fine. I’ll go on to the third one. The other thing that I really like about the business is working with my wife. I’m going to get some points for that – no. But I really do. That’s one of the things I really am glad that we have that sort of passion together – for the same thing. A lot of times people have their own interest and go sort of separate ways with those things. But we have this thing that we’re both passionate about, so it’s really awesome.
Seth Williams: That’s very cool. Do you guys each specialize in a particular aspect of the business? What do you do and what does she do?
Danny Johnson: I basically do marketing and go to the house is make offers by the houses, help with handling the rehab and then she does a design for rehab and then staging and then helping with the whole sale of it. I start with the first half and she kind of does the second half and then we have people that help us too within the business too with a lot of aspects, but for the most part that’s how it goes and then she handles a lot of the bookkeeping, which she doesn’t really enjoy all that much, but we’re looking for somebody to take that off of her.
Seth Williams: Sure. Yeah, that’s actually something my wife does too. She’s a CPA by trade and man that’s exactly where I’m not. I can do it but I just don’t love it. It’s not my passion and it’s awesome to have her there to help with that.
Danny Johnson: Oh yeah. I know it’d be a mess if I did it, right?
Seth Williams: Could be. I don’t know.
Danny Johnson: What are the things that you may be dislike about the business because it’s not all pie in the sky awesome stuff. There are some things that are a little bit difficult to deal with.
Seth Williams: Yeah absolutely. I would say this is probably more because of like an internal issue in my head. But I think you might use realtors or other people to sit down and list your property. I suppose in the beginning, a lot of the properties that I sold were pretty inexpensive, not big number big dollar amount deals. But whenever I’m trying to sell a property and I put a lot of work into creating listing and getting good pictures and promoting it like crazy, when I do that and then the phone doesn’t ring, a week goes by, two weeks go by and – I mean, I’ve never had it where the property didn’t eventually sell. I made good money on it for the most part, but when you wait a couple weeks and nothing happens a little part of me always starts to just sort of panic like, “Oh my gosh, like what did I do? How did I screw this up?” It’s just kind of funny. No amount of experience will give me enough comfort to make me not worry. I wish I could just get more confident and get over that.
Danny Johnson: Yeah, I don’t know if the worry ever goes completely away because we’re all taking some risk here. It’s with limited risk but we all still take risk.
Seth Williams: Yeah I know. I wish there was a way to just be totally comfortable with that, but it’s something I’ll probably always have to wrestle with.
Danny Johnson: Yeah. It keeps you sharp though.
Seth Williams: Yeah, it does.
Danny Johnson: After two weeks with not much happening, I bet you don’t just sit there and worry, probably start to do other things and say “I’m got to push this harder. I got to find a way to move it right.
Seth Williams: In a lot of ways, I mean that’s where a lot of my improvement as an investor has come from is, kind of lights a fire under you. It’s like “Okay, figure something out.” Think of a solution here. The good news is there are all kinds of stuff you can do to improve that kind of situation, tons of stuff. You can improve the listing, you can change the price, you can offer different terms. There are just a lot of things and that’s one of the nice things I love about real estate is that it’s not a black and white thing. There’s a lot of things you can do to play with it and make it look more appealing to people.
Danny Johnson: Yeah, absolutely. Find out maybe from some people that looked at it and said that they didn’t want it, ask them why they didn’t want it, maybe it’s not something that you thought of, right?
Seth Williams: Yeah exactly.
Danny Johnson: Yeah. The first thing that I wrote, which sounds funny when I just say it like this I think, but fleas just fleas.
Seth Williams: You’re talking about literal fleas, right? Like, the bugs?
Danny Johnson: Yeah, right, the bugs. Here in Texas I don’t know if this is as bad in most places, I would assume it would be. But sometimes in these vacant houses, if the people that lived there before had an animal that had fleas, they don’t seem to have a whole lot of them while they lived there, but as soon as people vacate a house and there were some fleas, they multiply like crazy. I had one case where I just walked down the driveway next to the house, I was maybe there for 30 seconds and I looked down and I swear my jeans were black.
Seth Williams: What? Are you serious?
Danny Johnson: Thousands and thousands of fleas on me. It was insane.
Seth Williams: Oh my gosh. I didn’t realize it could get that bad. It’s crazy.
Danny Johnson: Oh, it gets bad. I was just on the driveway. I didn’t even go inside the house. I was too afraid to.
Seth Williams: Is this anything like bedbugs? A similar thing or is it totally different than that?
Danny Johnson: It think it’s totally different. I mean, they’ll bite you and everything. Yea, it’s not, I don’t know. I don’t really know much about bedbugs so I couldn’t – but it’s not like an infestation thing I don’t think. Obviously I knocked them all off of me, but if I left one on me, I wouldn’t take it home and they would multiply. It wouldn’t work like that.
Seth Williams: Okay, that’s good.
Danny Johnson: But I still always worry about it though. I’ll do my dance out in the middle of the street for about 30 minutes patting everything down.
Seth Williams: I’d pay good money to see that.
Danny Johnson: Yeah, I know. I’ve done it a lot of times but – so anyway, carry some Off with you maybe and spray your pant legs and stuff.
Seth Williams: Are they living in the carpet or something or what?
Danny Johnson: Yeah. Typically it’s mostly during the summertime and so we have like what, 10 months of summer here in San Antonio but – so yeah you walk in and just have a habit to look down at your jeans to see if there’s a flea on you or not.
Seth Williams: Is it difficult to get rid of those if you were to buy one of those houses?
Danny Johnson: Oh no, not really, no. You just you get some raid fogger or something like that and set them off in the house. I’m making it sound like it’s every house that has it, but it’s probably like one in twenty houses that has some bad flea problem that has been vacant for a while.
Seth Williams: I’ve never heard of that up here in Michigan. I’m sure it probably happens, but maybe it’s like the cold weather or something that that kills them off. I have heard of the bedbug thing but not the fleas. That’s kind of interesting.
Danny Johnson: Yes. So that’s mine. What else you got on the dislike column?
Seth Williams: Yeah. I think another thing that has always sort of bothered me and this is part of why I started getting into rental properties and other things, but is not knowing when the next deal is going to come in and how big it’s going to be. It’s similar to the whole issue of not knowing if the property is going to sell. I don’t know why I get so worried about it because I get plenty of leads coming up the door. The opportunity is always there but just the uncertainty of it like, “I don’t know.” I mean I hope it works out next month it always does, but the uncertainty factor bothers me.
Danny Johnson: Do you think that that maybe helped to motivate you a little bit to do some of the longer term stuff, the owner financing and things like that to help maybe cushion that, so you have monthly income coming in?
Seth Williams: Yeah, absolutely. It has. In the end that’s kind of where I want to be anyway, is having several very different sources of income in my life so that if I were to pull the plug on any one of them, it’s okay because I’ve got a bunch of other ones that are not at all contingent on the one that just died kind of thing. From that standpoint it sort of made me put together a pretty solid game plan from that standpoint. But it’s like when you’re pursuing a business and you want it to grow especially if you like living off that, it’s just kind of is bothersome to not know what tomorrow is going to look like.
Danny Johnson: Yeah. I try to use that as a reason to always stay on top of business. You always have to continue marketing. You can’t stop. You might get three good deals and you’re busy doing rehabs and stuff like that, but you still can’t stop marketing. You’ve got to keep doing it.
Seth Williams: I am curious like from someone like yourself who’s been doing this full time for a while now, have you ever had like a dry spell where you went like just months and nothing was happening or has that never really happened?
Danny Johnson: Oh absolutely, that actually just recently happened.
Seth Williams: Okay. And how do you handle that?
Danny Johnson: Throughout the beginning of this year we went many months without any deals. It’s just a matter of you know doing more marketing. I say no deals, but I think that’s more of no rehabs. I think we did some wholesales and got some money from bird dogging and stuff like that. But what it boiled down to for me though was I started getting the wrong mindset. We always talk about having the right mindset on the blogs and everything. And I think some people brush that off just saying, “Oh…” People that are already in the business doing well always talk about having the mindset, right? But even after being in the business for over 12 years now, I didn’t even realize that I was starting to get the wrong mindset. I was starting to talk a lot about how bad the competition had gotten, there’s so much competition and they’re paying ridiculous amounts for a deal, so I can’t get any deals and I found myself saying that. I couldn’t believe that I was even doing it not even realizing it and I have a conversation with my father who also flips houses and something just clicked. He told me something and it made me realize that I had been thinking the wrong way. And so all of a sudden I was like, “Maybe it is just on my head.” As soon as I had that realization, I had not yet done more marketing, I hadn’t done anything really differently except to have that epiphany or that realization that I was thinking negatively about deals that within the next week and a half I think I got three houses on a contract.
Seth Williams: It’s really funny how that works. Back to my previous dislike about when I list something and it just kind of sits there forever, I’ve seen this so many times that I don’t know why it works this way. But I’ll have a property sitting out there and it’s just crickets nothing happened and then out of nowhere, I’d get like four calls in a day on it and everybody wants it and there’s like there’s a bidding war and it’s like, where were you people two months ago? I’m always thankful when that happens, but it’s just really weird.
Danny Johnson: You attract it, right?
Seth Williams: Yes.
Danny Johnson: If you have the right mindset, you sort of attract those things to happen.
Seth Williams: I don’t know the mechanics of how or why it works, but it always seems to in the end. It’s just a matter of I guess being patient and being thankful to a process that you know works and just continuing to believe in that.
Danny Johnson: Yeah, it’s awesome. Let me see where were we, I think it was my turn on the just like column. I’m going to say contractors, not all contractors, just bad contractors. And what I mean by bad contractors are ones that aren’t responsible and don’t do good work. Typically when looking back on rehabs and when the flipping business wasn’t going well and when I was super stressed out and every day seemed to be a problem, it almost always boiled down to my mistake of hiring the wrong contractor almost every single time.
Seth Williams: Is this like the general contractor overseeing everything or just like a subcontractor doing one job?
Danny Johnson: Right, general contractors. Typically we hire a general contractor to handle the whole rehab and we have subs that we sort of have go over to do a track and electrical and stuff like that. But most the time it’s mostly the GC and that’s who I’m mostly referring to when we’ve had – maybe even a good contractor that started doing bad. And what I mean by bad is – and early on we have this problem where a contractor would not be at a job for a week and you’re going over there saying, what the heck is going on here ir there’s one guy working real slow. It’s like, “Where’s everybody at? It’s like a ghost town?” Yeah. Well, when I was new in the business, I didn’t realize it was my fault – first for hiring that contractor, second because I paid them too much too soon. Typically if they’re not there, it’s because you probably paid them too much too soon. Now they’re going to work another job where they’re going to get money too.
Seth Williams: Sure. That makes sense.
Danny Johnson: Yeah and take of that with contracts. Make sure the contract has a deadline where they need to finish it and then you have a penalty for every day that goes over that it’s not done by that deadline and that will solve that most of the time.
Seth Williams: That’s a really good idea. I’ve actually thought about using this land investing strategy with the delinquent tax list to get some actual houses in my general vicinity and that would probably involve some element of getting a general contracture and getting them to get in there and fix the place up. That’s actually something I’ve been thinking a lot more about and it is just something I never really had to deal with in the land business, but it’s a lot more relevant when you’re talking about a dwelling of some kind. That’s really good stuff for me to just keep in mind if and when I get to that point.
Danny Johnson: Yeah absolutely so. So it’s the whole thing about “hire slow and fire fast” right? You take the time to interview as many contractors as you can and find the right one based on references from other investors and things like that, never just like the hurry and try to get somebody on that job right away no matter who it is. Take the time and then if you find that things aren’t working out, get rid of them as soon as possible. But anyway, so what do you got next on the—
Seth Williams: Oh yeah, I’d say my next one is something that – I’ve never really gotten good at this. But some things in my business are just like really really time consuming. They just take way more of my time than they should. For example, doing some property research handling closings or creating listings and figuring out market values of properties, there are a lot of things that it suck so much time out of my life and it’s like “Man, how do I offload this stuff?” I know everything that’s been said about hired a VA and all that stuff and that’s honestly something I probably should have pursued a lot harder prior to now but I don’t know. It’s something that’s like, it takes some real education to deal a lot of this stuff like, you can’t just find anybody in the Philippines and say, “Hey, do this.” It takes less sort of training to do that. I just never really found a good solution to that. I’m sure it’s completely my fault. It’s just something that I don’t do well and it hurts sometimes. Time is not a luxury I really have right now in my life. I just have a lot of things going on. It’s hard to juggle all that especially when things just take up so much of my time.
Danny Johnson: Yeah. I’m with you on that. I think we’re probably the same in that it’s pretty hard to let go of some of the tasks that we do. I did order a book and I haven’t started reading it because I’m reading three other books already, but it’s sitting on my nightstand and I plan to read, but I got this for that exact reason and maybe you should check it out too it’s called Virtual Freedom.
Seth Williams: Yeah. I actually got that audiobook and listened to the whole thing. It’s really good. There’s a lot of good stuff on there.
Danny Johnson: Okay, good because I haven’t read it yet, so hopefully it is. It’s a couple of years old I think but it shouldn’t matter.
Seth Williams: Maybe I just was missing something, but that book, it seemed to apply a lot to like online-type businesses which we both have some of that gone on. It is totally applicable there. But when it comes to the real estate stuff, I think there’s a lot of that can that can be done virtually but it’s sort of like you got hire a VA who is good at a specific thing like, any one virtual assistant is not going to be good at all of it. You’re going to have to pick them based on their expertise and where you need the most help. Anyway, you can read the book. There’s a lot of stuff in there, but yeah I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on it once you’re done with it though just to see if you can think of any solutions that came up just through getting through that.
Danny Johnson: Yeah. Maybe we should start a book club too. I think that would be a good idea.
Seth Williams: Maybe.
Danny Johnson: Share books back and forth then. I love reading books. I don’t know about you but I I’ve always got a big stack of them next to my bed. All right, so the third one for me is dishonest investors and I’ll just make this quick because we’re already running a little bit more here, but dishonest investors – this is something just to be aware of for some of the newer people out there because any time you’ve got a business where people there are chances to make a good amount of money on something. You’re going to have people that do things unethically and you’ll think maybe if you’re used to always everybody sort of being honest then on the up and up. You just have to watch out sometimes for people that aren’t and what I mean by that is the experiences is just like mostly – I’ve had a couple of things happen just where people were sort of like in a wholesale deal where they try to go behind your back and work a deal with the seller and stuff like that, but it’s also things that I’ve heard from other people. Where maybe somebody was doing a short sale on a property and they wholesaled – well, they wholesaled the deal on and the guy that was going to buy – the investor was going to buy from the other investor without telling him decided to try to do a short sale. I don’t know how they were working all this stuff out. It was really weird. But anyway the part of it that really got me was when this investor they got burned told me that it didn’t work out and so they didn’t buy it and they kept stringing him and the seller on more importantly. The seller ended up losing the house to foreclosure all because of this other investor tried to do something he couldn’t do and then didn’t feel was important to get out of the way, so that the seller could do something else with the house. It’s like they could just care less that they went to foreclosure and lost their house. But anyway, that’s one of the things I don’t like about the business.
Seth Williams: I totally get that. For me, a lot of people I sell to, they’re not even really investors necessarily. They’re just kind of like people who want land. A lot of people are just flaky. It just really bothers me. They just don’t care. I mean they’ll string you along and make you think they’re going to want to buy something and they’re really just kicking the tire. It’s very bothersome to deal with that. I think there are probably some ways you can manage that, but in a lot of ways, that’s just kind of comes with the territory in this business. It seems like it does.
Danny Johnson: Right. It’s just to know that it’s there and to sort of recognize when something is not going the way it’s supposed to and trying to nip in the bud and take care of it before it becomes a problem. We’ve covered a lot of ground on this episode. It’s really awesome. I really liked talking a lot of the land stuff because it’s not a normal thing that a lot of people have heard about including myself. So I’ve got some awesome notes here from this and I’ll share them on the show notes page, which will be on flipping junkie dot com slash podcast slash Seth Williams – S-E-T-H-W-I-L-L-I-A-M-S, flippingjunkie.com/pocast/sethwilliams. I usually ask if people have a book that they like to recommend to anybody listening, anything that you’ve may be read recently that you enjoyed.
Seth Williams: I’m going to pull up my Audible app here and just see what I’ll get. Do you ever do audiobooks or mostly just read them the old fashion way?
Danny Johnson: I listen to podcasts while I’m driving around stuff.
Seth Williams:One that I read not long ago was one called “Getting Past No” by William Ury, U-R-Y is how you spell his last name. I don’t know how you pronounce that, but it’s really just a book about negotiation and how do you get past no. When you hear the word “no,” is it the end of the conversation or are there things you can do to kind of get past that? A lot of the stuff I found was actually fairly intuitive. It’s not like, “Oh, I never thought of that.” But at the same coin, it’s like you really don’t think about it in the heat of the moment when you hear “no” and you’re just kind of like upset and not happy about it. But if you can kind of follow the process he lays out and just kind of think of ways to get around that, it’s pretty helpful.
Danny Johnson: Cool. I appreciate that. I have to check that out.
Seth Williams: What about you? Anything else?
Danny Johnson: Let me see. Bookwise?
Seth Williams: Yeah. Any anything good you’re reading or just read.
Danny Johnson: Right now I’m actually reading Miracle Morning.
Seth Williams: Okay. What’s that about?
Danny Johnson: By Hal Elrod. That’s about a morning ritual and I just started it too. It’s basically about having a morning ritual to get your mind right and everything. His story is pretty incredible because I guess when he was around 20 years old, I think it was, he was a salesperson and he was selling a lot and doing really well on the company within the stuff and then he had a car accident, hit head on and actually died for six minutes, and then brought back to life and had permanent brain damage and broken 20-something bones or something like that and instead of just thinking of where he was and having a pity party, he thought I’m going to use this to my advantage, I’m going to from now make sure that I make sure that I make the most out of everything and just turn it into positive. I mean it just goes into some cool things and heard that on another podcast – from Justin Wayne’s podcast. He interviewed him and so I saw that on there, got the book and started reading. It sounds like a pretty cool thing.
Seth Williams: Cool. I could use a better morning ritual than the one I currently have. I just kind of flop on the floor and groan for a while and get up and kick the dog and take a shower, maybe I could change that around a little bit.
Danny Johnson: Yeah. It sounds like you probably could benefit from a little change. So let’s see here. Is there a way that everybody out there can reach you.
Seth Williams: Yeah. Probably the best place is to just to check out the blog, which you mentioned earlier, REtipster.com. I’m also on the major social media outlets like Facebook, Twitter and G+ all that stuff. Feel free to check out the blog or reach out to me in of those spots too.
Danny Johnson: All right. Cool. And then we’ll have the links also that we talked about in the show notes page flippingjunkie.com/podcast/sethwilliams including the postcard example that he talked about in the show, so looking forward to that. Thanks a lot again Seth.
Seth Williams: Yeah. No problem. Thanks for having me on. It was really fun talking to you and maybe we can do it again sometime.
Danny Johnson: Cool. Have a great day.
Seth Williams: Thanks, you too.
Thanks for listening to today’s episode. I hope you got a lot out of it. I know I enjoyed interviewing Seth and everything he shared. I want to take a minute just to ask you what you’re struggling with. I want to be able to provide specific information on each episode that covers exactly what you want to hear and you can do that by simply going to Facebook.com/flippingjunkie and “junkie” is J-U-N-K-I-E – so Facebook dot com slash flipping junkie and once you’re there you can leave a message for me containing what exactly has been holding you back and any other questions that you might have about flipping houses and what I’ll do is I’ll make a list of those things and make episodes to cover each of those topics that you are struggling with or want to find out more about. Please be sure to go facebook.com/flippingjunkie to do that and also visit flippingjunkie.com/9 – the number 9 for today’s show notes and to get the postcard that Seth uses to generate leads and has been nice enough to share with out. You can get that at flippingjunkie.com/9. Thanks a lot for listening and I’ll see you next time.